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宗萨钦哲仁波切:真正的上师“全然不在乎”

【发布时间:2012-09-13】

 

宗萨钦哲仁波切:真正的上师「全然不在乎」

—— 东方上师在后现代世界的两难
 
 

安德鲁·寇涵(Andrew Cohen)对宗萨蒋扬钦哲仁波切的专访

Enlighten Next Magazine: Issue 31, December 2005–February 2006

http://www.enlightennext.Sorg/magazine/j31/dzongsar.asp?page=1

Enlighten Next杂志第31期,2005年12月-2006年2月

 
 
 
The enlightened mentor—the guru—has throughout the ages been that great being who willingly does battle with the powerful forces of ignorance that reside in the depths of the human soul. Through his or her living presence, the guru catalyzes extraordinary transformation, guiding human beings from darkness to light, from the limitations of a small and petty existence to the free and infinite expanses of illuminated awareness. Few modern teachers are as qualified to claim the title of guru as Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche, heir to a long and illustrious lineage of enlightened Buddhist masters. In this recent interview with spiritual teacher and WIE editor in chief Andrew Cohen, Dzongsar Rinpoche candidly discusses what it takes to fulfill his role as guru and explains why the greatest challenge, East or West, is to have the courage to completely disengage from public opinion and attain “a genuine indifference.”
 
开悟的导师 —— 上师 ——从无数世纪以来,一直是愿意与人类灵魂深处的强大无明力量战斗的那位伟人。透过他或她活生生的存在,上师催化着不寻常的转化,引导人类从黑暗走向光明,从一个微小且狭隘的存在之局限,转化成受启蒙觉性的自由且无限之开阔。当代导师中具有如宗萨钦哲仁波切般的资格而足称为上师者,仅为少数,仁波切承继了一个佛教开悟大师们悠远且著名的传承。在这个最近的访问中,宗萨钦哲仁波切与灵性教师兼WIE主编安德鲁·寇涵率直地讨论了达成如他一般身为上师角色所需的条件,并解释无论在东方或是西方,为何最大的挑战在于具有完全无视公众意见的勇气,并达到「一个真正的不在乎」。
 
 
 
ANDREW COHEN: You are uniquely straddling two worlds: you were born a tulku and had traditional Buddhist education and training in your own culture, but you have spent a lot of time in the West and have also become a well-known filmmaker. So you seem to have one foot in the premodern world and one foot in the postmodern world. You are quite an independent thinker, forging your own path as one of the pioneers in this very interesting time of transition in the evolution and development of the dharma, of East-meets-West spirituality. So I would like to talk with you about what it means to be a guru at this point in history.
 
寇涵:你独特地跨足于两个世界:生为「祖古」(转世),在自己的文化中接受佛教传统的教育与训练,然而你又花了很多时间在西方,也成为一位知名的电影工作者。以此看来你是一脚踏在传统社会,一脚踩在后现代社会。你的思考相当独立,在这个非常有趣、佛法演化发展的过渡时期,东西方灵性相遇的时刻,你锻造出自己的道路,成为开拓先驱之一。所以,我想要跟你讨论在历史的这个时点,身为上师意味着什么。
 
When someone takes on a guru, as is clearly illustrated in Words of My Perfect Teacher, it's a deep and serious engagement. And in the film, you speak very directly about the challenge that relationship poses to the ego, to the separate sense of self. The guru represents the dissolution of the ego, and yet Westerners of our generation, more often than not, don't seem to be prepared for this. And while you have said that there are many different methods for finding enlightenment, for discovering “the guru within,” one of the quickest and easiest is to receive the blessings of the teacher. Why is this? What actually is the role of the guru, and why is it so vital?
 
当某人担任上师,如同在〈真师之言〉影片中清楚说明的,那是很深刻、严肃的任务。而在电影中,你非常直率地说到那种关系对自我、对视自身为分离?的想法所带来的挑战。上师代表自我的崩解,然而我们这个世代的西方人却多数时候仍然不像是对此做好了准备。虽然你曾说过寻求证悟、发现「内在的上师」可以有许多不同的方式,不过最迅速且最容易的方式之一,就是领受上师的加持。为何如此?上师的角色到底是什么,为何如此至关重大?
 
 
DZONGSAR Rinpoche: The reason why the guru is the most effective is because the guru is someone you are supposed to look at as being superior to a human being. But he is also someone you can relate to. A guru is someone who eats pizza, who likes the same pizza that you like. And that's quite important because at the same time that he is someone you can relate to, he is the one you have consciously or unconsciously hired to destroy yourself!
 
宗萨钦哲仁波切:上师为何最为有效,其原因在于你理应视上师比一般人更为殊胜,但他也是你能具有某种连结的人。上师是个吃批萨、和你一样喜欢某种披萨的人,那相当重要,因为他同时是你能建立关系的一个人,是你有意或无意中雇用来摧毁自己的人!
 
 
 
COHEN: Could you say what you mean by that?
 
寇涵:能说说你指的是什么吗?
 
 
DZONGSAR: You give up everything and then hire him to destroy your ego. And you pay him body, speech, and mind to do that.
 
宗萨钦哲仁波切:你放弃一切,然后雇他来摧毁你的自我。而且你用身、语、意来支付他这么做。
 
 
 
COHEN: When you say, “destroy the ego,” that's not a small thing.
 
寇涵:你说「摧毁自我」,这可不是件小事情。
 
 
DZONGSAR: Yes. That's true.
 
宗萨钦哲仁波切:是的,确实如此。
 
 
 
COHEN: And as we were saying earlier, it seems that the destruction of the ego is an alien concept in postmodern Western culture, which is a nonreligious secular society. In fact, it seems that in postmodern culture, the ego, or the separate self-sense, has become even more powerful as a result of the cultural revolution that began in the sixties. At that time, the emphasis became freedom of the individual and freedom for the individual. And the result is that, unlike in previous times, there was no God above that one had to fear, which in the past had perhaps engendered humility, a bit of healthy fear of something higher than oneself.
 
寇涵: 如同我们稍早所说的,摧毁自我在后现代的西方文化里似乎是个外来的观念,后现代的西方文化是个非宗教性的世俗社会。事实上,似乎在后现代文化中,由于六〇年代开始的文化上的革命,自我、或视自身为分离的想法已经变得更为强大。那个时候所强调的是个人的自由以及为个人而有的自由。不同于过往,其结果是上方没有必须惧怕的上帝。在过去,对高于自己的某个东西具有一点健康的畏惧,可能激发了谦卑。
 
So when we in the West discovered enlightenment and then found that in order to attain it, the ego, or the separate self, had to die, this was a very big shock because culturally we had no training or preparation for this whatsoever. Now in the film, Words of My Perfect Teacher, you speak about how you hire the guru to be the assassin, the man or woman you hire to “completely dismantle you.” But how does a teacher succeed in “dismantling” their students' egos in this kind of cultural milieu?
 
所以当我们在西方发现有开悟,然后发现为了要得到开悟,自我或是分离的自身必须死去,这是个极大的震撼,因为我们在文化上对此毫无训练或准备。而今在电影〈真师之言〉里,你说到关于如何雇用上师做为杀手――那个你雇来「完全拆解你」的男人或女人。但是在这种文化环境下,一个导师要如何才能成功地「拆解」学生的自我?
 
 
DZONGSAR: It's difficult. This is why defining ego is very important, especially within a culture that doesn't have this kind of background. And I think the classic way of defining the ego is, at the end of the day, the only solution: Ignorance—which is the same as ego—is when you're looking at two, or more than two, ever-changing transitory things, and yet you think that they're one; you think they're independent and permanent. That is ignorance and that is ego.
 
宗萨钦哲仁波切:不容易。这就是为什么定义「自我」非常重要,特别是在一个没有这种背景的文化中。我认为定义「自我」最经典的方式,也是最后唯一的解答,就是:无明,即等同于自我,就是当你看着两个或两个以上不断改变的暂时性事物时,你却认为它们是同一个;你认为它们是独立且永恒的。那就是无明,那就是自我。
 
 
For instance, if I look at my hand, I make three mistakes. One, I think it's the same hand I had this morning. But that's not true; it has changed. And two, I think there's something called “hand” when there actually isn't because it's a part of a lot of things—my veins, my skin, my blood, all kinds of things.
 
举例来说,若我看着自己的手,我犯下三个错误。第一,我认为它是今早我所具有的同一只手。但那不是真的,它已经改变了。第二,我认为有一个叫做「手」的东西。其实并没有,因为它是很多东西――我的血管、皮肤、血液等等各种东西――的一部分。
 
 
 
COHEN: So the point is that there's no such thing as independent existence.
 
寇涵:所以重点是,没有独立存在的东西。
 
 
DZONGSAR: Right. And then another mistake I make is not realizing that the existence of my hand actually depends on many things. For instance, the fact that the ceiling hasn't fallen on my hand is the reason why it's moving, why it's there. But I don't think in that way. I think my hand is there because my hand is there.
 
仁波切:对。然后我还犯了一个错误,就是不明白我的手的这个存在实际上有赖于许多事物。例如,天花板没有掉在我手上,这是为什么我的手能够移动,为什么我的手在这里的原因。但我不用那样的方式思考,我认为我的手在那里,是因为我的手在那里。
 
 
 
COHEN: You're talking about what is called “dependent origination,” the understanding that everything that exists depends upon everything else that exists, which depends upon everything else that exists. In this, one sees that one's own self exists as part of this infinitely dependent process in which there is no one who is isolated or separate from the whole.
 
寇涵:你在说的是所谓的「缘起」,了解存在的一切事物都相依于其他存在的一切,且后者又依赖于其他存在的一切。在这当中,一个人知道自己的存在,是这个无尽相依的过程之一部分。在这过程中,没有人是孤立或离于整体的。
 
 
DZONGSAR: Yes, and all this information needs to be transmitted to one who wants to be the victim of the guru.
 
仁波切:对,这所有的讯息都需传递给那想要变成上师受害者的人。
 
 
 
COHEN: In the movie, you also spoke about how the guru crushes people's pride, as the means to purify them of ego motivations and attachment.
 
寇涵:在电影里,你还说到上师是如何粉碎人们的骄慢,而这是为了净除他们的自我动机和执取。
 
 
DZONGSAR: Yes, because pride is thinking something that is not necessarily you. For instance, if I asked you, “Are you a man?” you would say, “Yes.” That is confidence, not pride. Now, if I ask, “Are you a superman?” and you say, “Yes,” that may be pride because “super” is only an adjective, and is not imputed. Pride, ego, and ignorance are all synonymous.
 
仁波切:是的,因为骄慢是将某个不必然是你的东西视为自己。例如,如果我问你:「你是男的吗?」你会说:「是的。」那是自信,不是骄慢。现在如果我问你:「你是超人吗?」而你说:「是的。」那可能是骄慢,因为超人的「超」只是个形容词,也不是指称。骄慢、自我、无明都是同义词。
 
 
 
COHEN: And you said that the teacher who “crushes your pride and makes this worldly life completely miserable is something that you ask for. He is the assassin, he is the man or woman whom you have hired to completely dismantle you.”
 
寇涵:你说了「粉碎你的骄慢并且将这个世俗生活变得全然悲惨,这样的导师是你所要寻求的。他是个杀手,是你雇来摧毁自己的男人或女人。」
 
 
DZONGSAR: You may not realize that's what you're doing, but that's the idea—to dismantle everything: your identity, everything. And it's not like dismantling one big habit. It changes. Let's say today I would like to be stroked. Then a teacher should not stroke me. Or maybe today I would like to be beaten. Then maybe I should be stroked. So that's why this is actually beyond abuse and not abuse. If somebody bites you or beats you and handcuffs you, that's a kind of abuse, isn't it? But what I'm talking about is ultimate abuse. At the same time, abuse phenomena only exist if you are still clinging to transitory phenomena as permanent and real. If you don't, there is nothing to be abused. But that's difficult, really difficult.
 
仁波切:你可能不了解自己是在这么做,但确实是这样――摧毁一切:你的认同、一切。而且并非像毁掉一个根深蒂固的习惯那样。它会变化。比如今天我想要被轻抚,那么导师就不该轻抚我。或者也许今天我想被打一顿,那么也许我该被轻抚。因此那就是为何这件事情其实是超越虐待和不虐待。如果某人咬你、打你或用手铐把你铐住,那是种虐待,不是吗?但是我说的是究竟的虐待。同时,只有在你仍然将暂时性现象执取为「常」和「实有」时才会存在有虐待的现象。若你没有执取,就没有受虐待者。不过这有困难,十分困难。
 
 
 
COHEN: In that case, the teacher's work would be done.
 
寇涵:在那个情况下,老师的工作就完成了。
 
 
DZONGSAR: Yes, of course. But the kind of student we're talking about doesn't exist. And that kind of teacher doesn't exist, either. Teachers don't have that kind of courage. I don't have it. I may be a teacher, but I don't have that kind of courage because I love my reputation. Who wants to be referred to as an abuser? I don't. I am a sycophant. I try to go along with what people think. If people think a teacher should shave his head, wear something maroon, walk gently, eat only vegetarian food, be so-called serene, then I'm very tempted to do that. Rajneesh had the guts to have ninety-three Rolls Royces. I call it guts. One Rolls Royce is one thing. Even two or three—but ninety-three is guts! And I don't have the guts, the confidence. I like Rajneesh very much. I like him much better than Krishnamurti. Many of his words are quite good, and I can see why the Westerners would like him.
 
仁波切:对,当然。但是我们说的那种学生并不存在, 那种 老师也不存在。老师没有那种勇气。我就没有。我也 许是个老师,但是我没有那种勇气,因为我爱我的名声。谁想被指为施虐者呢?我可不想。我是个媚俗的人,试着跟从人们的想法。如果人们认为老师应该剃光头、穿绛红色衣衫、慢步、吃素、是所谓沉静的,那么我就很想那样做。拉杰尼希(Rajneesh,即奥修)有胆拥有九十三辆劳思莱思,我称那为有胆量。一辆劳思莱思――甚至两、三辆,那是一回事,但九十三辆,是胆量!而我并无那种胆量、自信。我非常喜欢拉杰尼希,我喜欢他远胜过喜欢克里希那穆提(Krishnamurti)。拉杰尼希说的很多话都相当好,我看得出来为什么西方人会喜欢他。
 
 
 
COHEN: Perhaps the problem with Krishnamurti was that he pretended that he wasn't a guru or a master, although he obviously was. I think this made it very difficult for people.
 
寇涵:也许克里希那穆提的问题是他自称并非上师或大师,尽管他显然是。我想这对人们来说很难接受。
 
 
DZONGSAR: Yes; it was a contradiction.
 
仁波切:是的,是个矛盾。
 
 
 
COHEN: Are you saying, then, that you hold back with your students?
 
寇涵:那么,你是说你会对你的学生有所保留?
 
 
DZONGSAR: I do, always.
 
仁波切:我总是如此。
 
 
 
COHEN: At the same time, you said in the film that you're an assassin—that that's your job.
 
寇涵:同时,你在电影里说你是个杀手,那是你的工作。
 
 
DZONGSAR: Yes, in the context that if I am a student's teacher, then that is my job. But I'm not promising I can do it. You know, but I love very much the eight worldly dharmas. I'm like these police undercover cops who are sent into a Mafia family. What I'm supposed to do is really check out these people, but I fall in love with what they do, so I follow what they want. It's difficult. And that comes from attachment to the eight worldly dharmas—attachment to the praise and fear of the criticism.
 
仁波切:是的,以我身为学生的老师来说,那就是我的工作。然而,我并非承诺我有能力这么做。你瞧,我是很喜爱世间八法的。我就像那些送到黑手党家族里的卧底警察,理应要仔细侦查那些人,却爱上他们所做的事,因此我遵循他们所想要的。很难。那来自对于世间八法的贪执――贪爱称誉,惧怕批评。
 
 
 
COHEN: But some of the greatest Tibetan gurus have the reputation for being the most fierce, like Marpa, for example. He was the fiercest.
 
寇涵:然而有些最伟大的西藏上师是因极为凶恶而闻名,例如马尔巴。他是最凶恶的。
 
 
DZONGSAR: Oh, yes, of course. They could do it because they have no agenda. Their only agenda was to enlighten. They didn't care what people said, what other people thought—I call it CCL: couldn't-care-less-ness. That holds the biggest power. But who has it today? No one.
 
仁波切:对,当然。他们能这样做是因为他们没有自己的规划议程。他们唯一的规划事项就是要证悟。他们不在乎其他人说什么、想什么――我把这个叫做CCL(Couldn’t-care-less;全然不在乎)。那具有最大的力量。但是今天谁有呢?没有人。
 
 
 
COHEN: One of the most interesting things that were revealed about you in the film was the juxtaposition of the roles you're playing. As a guru in the West, you are working with Western students who, at least in theory, are coming to you for enlightenment, and yet who come from this postmodern context where there's an inherent mistrust of authority. Whereas in Bhutan , thousands and thousands of Bhutanese people have no doubt that you are a living god.
 
寇涵:在电影揭露关于你的事情里,最有趣的事情之一就是并列出你所扮演的各个角色。身为在西方的上师,你与西方的学生一起工作,至少在理论上他们来你这里是为了证悟,然而他们仍是来自这个对权威向来不信任的后现代环境。而在不丹,数以千计的不丹人却毫不怀疑地确信你是个活神仙。
 
 
DZONGSAR: I think on both continents I have mastered the art of pretense. I go to Bhutan and I know what to do for them, to do what is most harmonious. Because if I act or say things in Bhutan or in Tibet that I say in the West, I'll be in trouble. Now that is what I was referring to before. I do this because I don't want to lose disciples; I don't want to be criticized. Of course, I can justify those actions by saying, “Oh, it's coming from a good motivation, because I don't want to jeopardize the spiritual path of hundreds of people.”
 
仁波切:我想我在两块大陆(PS:亚洲和美洲) 都伪装得很好。我去不丹时,知道要为他们做什么,知道做什么是最和谐的。因为假如我在不丹或西藏做或说我在西方说的东西,我会陷入麻烦。那就是我先前所指的,我这样做是因为我不想丧失弟子,我不想受批评。当然,我能够合理化这些行为,说是:「哦,它起于一个善良的动机,因为我不想要危害数百人的修道。」
 
 
 
COHEN: You described in the film how it's very difficult for you to have an authentic relationship with many of your Bhutanese devotees because of the kind of admiration they have for you. But with your Western students, there is the fundamental ego position that feels that “no one is higher than me.” And this also presents difficulty, because for any authentic guru to be able to help a student achieve enlightenment, there has to be the acceptance from the outset that the guru has realized something that the student has not yet realized. Then, of course, there's the tremendous pressure the teacher places on the ego and the student's identification with it. And in Words of My Perfect Teacher, Lesley Ann Patten showed very well how many of your Western students were struggling with these very issues—with the notions of hierarchy and authority, and even with their lack of faith in the possibility of enlightenment itself.
 
寇涵:你在电影里说到很难与众多不丹信徒建立真正的关系,因为他们对你的那种崇敬。但是你的西方弟子们却有根本的自我立场,觉得「没有人比我更崇高」。而这也带来困难,因为任何真正的上师若要帮助学生开悟,就必须从一开始就接受上师,明白一些学生尚未明白的事情。然后,当然还有老师加在自我、以及学生对自我的认同其上的巨大压力。在〈真师之言〉中,莱斯莉·安·派滕清楚展现出你的西方学生里有多少人在这个议题上挣扎――连同对阶级制度与权威的看法,甚至还有他们对证悟本身的可能性缺乏信心等。
 
 
DZONGSAR: Yes, exactly. But in both cultures there is one thing that is similar—it's this culprit: expectation. In Eastern cultures, like in Bhutan , there may be blind devotion, but they all have an expectation. In the Western culture, they may be skeptical and secular, but there's also expectation. And that expectation, while it may manifest differently, fundamentally has only one nature and that is that everybody wants to be happy. And that is where things go wrong.
 
仁波切:对,的确。但是在两种文化中有一个东西是类似的,就是「期望」这个罪人。在东方文化中,像是在不丹,可能有盲信,但全都有一个期望。在西方文化里,他们也许保持怀疑态度,是世俗论者,但也有期望。那期望也许以不同的方式显现,但基本上只有一个本质,那就是每个人都想要快乐。而这就是事情出差错的地方。
 
To be a Buddhist and to be practicing dharma have nothing to do with being happy. If you're practicing the dharma to be happy, then it's like you're doing the opposite, just the opposite. Enlightenment has nothing to do with happiness or unhappiness. And both cultures come to me to be happy. That really is the source of all the misunderstanding.
 
身为佛教徒以及学佛,这和快乐一点关系都没有。假如你学佛是为了要快乐,那么就像是反其道而行,完全相反。证悟和快乐或不快乐都没有关系。而这两种文化来我这里都是为了要快乐。那真是一切误解的来源。
 
 
 
COHEN: Yes. The goal is to be free from both happiness and unhappiness.
 
寇涵:是的。目标是要从快乐和不快乐中解脱。
 
 
DZONGSAR: Yes, and I have to teach them what to expect. But it's really difficult.
 
仁波切:对,而我必须教导他们该期望什么。不过这十分困难。
 
 
 
COHEN: The fact that you are in these two different cultures seems to make it challenging for you to be simply and authentically yourself. Because on the one hand, in Bhutan , there is a certain role you need to assume, which you've accepted—that's your dharma, your destiny. But there are restrictions associated with that premodern context. And in the West, because of the postmodern secular context, there are also restrictions. So your own capacity to just be fully and spontaneously yourself, even as a teacher or as a guru, must be inhibited in both cases. Could you speak a little bit about this?
 
寇涵:置身于两个不同的文化,这似乎对于你要做单纯且真正的自己造成挑战,因为一方面在不丹你需要扮演一个特定的、你已接受的角色――那是你要遵守的法则,是你的命运。但是在传统情况下有某些相关的限制。而在西方由于后现代的俗世情境,也有许多限制。因此,你想单单做个完整且自然的自己,甚或是做为老师或上师,这样的能力必然在两种情况下都受到禁制。你能对此稍谈一些吗?
 
 
DZONGSAR: This is a very good question. It all goes to tell me that the bottom line is that I need to develop my courage, the courage to learn CCL—“couldn't-care-less-ness.” In the morning, with a little bit of good motivation, I can start teaching. That will accumulate some merit, I'm sure. At least I'm not going around teaching people to blow themselves up or kill infidels. And even teaching I only do when I'm in a spiritual mood. But my job now, my duty is to first develop my “couldn't-care-less-ness.” The bottom line is that I need to learn that; I need to achieve that. Then, even if I receive bad publicity in the West, I couldn't care less. Once I achieve that, then I'll reach a certain level where real genuine compassion is. Until then, everything is a bit deceptive.
 
仁波切:这是个非常好的问题。这全都在告诉我,底线就是我需要发展出自己的勇气――去学习「全然不在乎」的勇气。早晨,带着些微良善的发心,我能开始传法,我确信那会累积一些功德。至少我不会四处游走,教导人们把自己炸了或是杀掉异教徒。而即使是传法,我也只有在心情偏向灵性方面时才会做。不过现在我的工作,我的职责是要先发展出自己的「全然不在乎」。至少我需要去学习全然不在乎,我需要做得到。然后,即使我在西方得到不良风评,我也完全不在乎。一旦我做到了,那么我就达到一定的境界,具有真正的慈悲。在那个时刻之前,一切都有些虚伪矫饰。
 
 
~ Bella中译,Serena 2009/11/14初校,11/24初PO,若有错误敬请指正。
 
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